Two Sundays ago I went over to the Jacob Burns Center and interviewed Armando Iannucci, the director and co-writer of In the Loop for the Daily Beast. In the Loop is one of the best political satires I have seen in years, one that uses comic insights into human foibles–vanity, ambition, anxiety, lust, and so on–to gain a larger insight into political dynamics. I thought the movie was just brilliant (you can read the Daily Beast article by clicking here.)
We had dinner at MacArthur’s. He had fish and chips, which I guess he doesn’t get enough of at home in London. He is a small and quiet man, and unusual for someone so funny–he had a very long string of comedy successes in the UK, including co-creating the Alan Partridge character with Steve Coogan–he made no effort to be “on” during our discussion. But he was very smart, and I enjoyed talking to him very much. Here is the interview in total:
In the Loop has its roots in The Thick of It, a series set in the office of a minor cabinet minister in Parliament. The film, though, takes this world and expands it and makes it more complex, and much more relevant to current events.
After the first series of The Thick of It [Armando is finishing work on a second series of episodes], we did two hour-long specials, and I became aware that we could take this world that we had established and broaden it. And around the same time, there was then the background to the invasion of Iraq–the dysfunction in the departments in the US, and the British prime minister’s role, how he was just star struck going to Washington. It was both terribly tragic and farcical, and I was very angry, and I thought, Well, that’s the story I want to show, that notion that these are people who are just engaged in office politics, and their small dreams of empire building can have enormous consequences.
The film is based on “the dodgy dossier’’ that Blair threw together to get Parliament to vote for war.
Loosely, yes. That was a situation where the intelligence people were saying about weapons of mass destruction “well, I suppose there is the possibility that there might be. . .’’, and they were instructed to strike out “I suppose’’ and “might be.’’ But there are other elements. I am very interested in the notion that terrible consequences can come from people who aren’t themselves terrible, who aren’t evil and engaged in a conspiracy. What we’ve all seen, what we all know, is that people will slightly compromise themselves incrementally, so that before you know it, they have talked themselves into doing what they have never thought about, and are now doing almost on a whim. The movie is really about behavior, ambition, vanity.
The central character, I think it’s fair to say, is Malcolm Tucker, the Prime Minister’s Director of Communications, who’s played by Peter Capaldi. Malcolm is a character who you created for “The Thick of It.’’ He’s in charge of controlling the government’s message., and he’s aggressive, profane, domineering. . .
Malcolm is the figure that people seize on. In any work, people gravitate toward the dark figure. At university, I almost got a PhD in Paradise Lost, and what’s clear to me is that Satan is the real hero of that story. The whole poem goes up whenever Satan arrives, and tries to win people over to the dark side with his magnificent oratory. And in the same way, Malcolm uses sheer force of personality and sheer force of language to suck you in.
It’s been reported that you based Malcolm on Alastair Campbell, who had been Tony Blair’s Director of Communications.
A little bit on Alastair Campbell, and a little bit on Peter Mandelson, who’s been called the Labor Party’s Prince of Darkness, and also on a lot of anonymous hordes of enforcers, as they’re known. They’re all the Dementors in Harry Potter; they’re all committed to the belief that events are controlled by how they’re perceived in the media.
When we were looking at actors, my casting director said you must see Peter Capaldi. Well, I wasn’t so sure. Peter had spent last ten or fifteen years playing nice people—the bereaved widower in murder mysteries, that sort of thing—and I wasn’t sure he was up to it. We didn’t have a script yet, but I explained a scenario. I would play a minister, and he would play Malcolm. He would come in and be very nice, and explain that I have to resign. And when I say I’m not going to do it, you turn. Well, he turned. And I thought, that’s Malcolm! [All episodes of The Thick of It can be see on youtube, and this scenario. which eventually became the first scene in the first episode of The Thick of It, can be seen here.)
People say that because Malcolm is from Scotland and I’m from Scotland that he’s my alter ego or something, but he wasn’t written as a Scot. But as it happens, we’re both from Glasgow, and the big coincidence is that my mom knew him as wee baby. His parents and my parents were great friends, and in fact, my dad made kitchen units, and Peter says he grew up in one of my dad’s kitchens.
It’s instructive that the winners in your film are all bullies, and the biggest winner is the biggest bully. But they have different styles.
Yes, Malcolm is very aggressive, but the American Assistant Secretary of State, Linton Barwick, is smoother. I saw how Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz functioned, and how John Bolton functioned at the UN. It wasn’t an aggressive bullying, it was emotional, intellectual. They would cut people dead if they disagreed with them, like they were beneath notice. David Rasche, the actor who plays Linton, watched tapes of all of them, and he came up with a performance that wasn’t a caricature of any of them, but a kind of wonderful amalgam.
It’s interesting that in this nest of vipers, Linton is generally perceived as the bad guy.
Yes, it was fascinating to see at screenings that near the end, when Malcolm is slightly on the ropes, the audience was suddenly on his side. And when he hands the report over to Linton and smiles, there’s a big cheer, which is funny, because fundamentally, Malcolm is making a war happen there. But I like when the audience is compromised, when they catch themselves falling for the wrong guy. I never want to make clear who the god guys and bad guys are.
James Gandolfini plays General Miller. How did he get involved in the film?
The BBC put up for sale the rights to remake The Thick of It for the US. In the end, rather than selling it to the best bidder, they sold it to the highest bidder, which turned out to ABC, and the results were terrible—very traditional sitcom direction, no improvisation. But we did have discussions with HBO, and with James and his production company. And given that he was such a fan of the series, I thought, why not ask him to play General Miller? And he said let’s do it. And he was a joy. James has great comic timing, and he was always coming up with comic ideas. After spending two weeks in London at rehearsals, he decided to he wanted to visit the Pentagon, and because he was James Gandolfini, they let him in, And he talked to all these generals, and visited the Situation Room, and then just before he left, he went to the barber shop and and got his hair cut Pentagon style. And he even–because Malcolm asks him if he’s ever killed anyone–he asked all these generals, “Have you ever killed anyone?’’
Did you ever consider naming the president or prime minister, or having a character who the president or PM?
No, the movie is really about international politics as middle management. When you show the president or the PM, everyone starts focusing on whom that person really represents. I really like staying on the lower level, because it’s more like reality. It’s like we’re eavesdropping on something not meant to be seen. That’s why, when we researched the film, we asked people in the departments and so on not for inside stories necessarily, but for real details—the dull stuff, the clothes people wear, what’s frustrating or boring. One person told us that Madeleine Albright had a saying to the effect that if you’re in a meeting, you’re in power, but if you leave a meeting, you lose power. She had her people practice what was called Bladder Diplomacy—they could sit in a meeting for six hours. That’s why we gave the Karen Clark character a problem with her tooth—a bad problem that she wouldn’t leave the meeting to take care of.
You did some very personal research for the film, right?
Yes, I snuck into the State Department to see what the offices are like. I have a pass from the BBC—just an ordinary thing with my name and photo that you can download, no stamp or serial number or anything. A friend told me, just go up to the reception desk and show them your pass and tell them that you’re there for the 12:30—and they let me in! And I wandered around for a half hour or so, expecting at any moment to be arrested. Finally some big guy came up and said “Can I help you?’’ And I thought, okay, this is where I get water boarded. I said, “I’m here for the 12:30,’’ and he said “It’s right in here.’’ And it was Condi Rice’s press briefing!
I’m surprised people in office were so willing to help.
The people in that world are always very excited when anyone makes a film or TV about their world. In London, we filmed the opening of the film outside of Number 10 [Downing Street], and all the government enforcers, all the little Malcolms, came out with their cameras to get their picture taken with Peter Capaldi. And in Washington, I was talking to a senior member of Vice President Biden’s staff not long ago, and he said `You’ll never guess who came to see us the other day! Bradley Whitford, who played Josh Lyman on The West Wing!’ And I thought, `But you are Josh Lyman! You’re Josh Lyman every day!’
But we hear from people. Not long ago we were working on the second series of The Thick of It, and we thought of having a minister decide that he wanted to be seen as more a man of the people, and so he would start walking from his office to the House of Commons. But then his staff told him that while he could walk, his papers, being government property, would have to ride. Hilarious idea, but in the end, we dropped it, because it seemed too far out. But then someone told us that in order to seem more green, David Cameron, the head of the Tories in Parliament, rides a bike to work every day, except that he’s followed by car where he keeps his shoes and shirt.
Have you heard from any real politicians who’ve seen the film?
Yeah. Alastair Campbell said it was boring.